Redstone Rules Extra Notice!

Discussion in 'News & Announcements' started by Shazepe, Feb 8, 2021.

  1. Shazepe

    Shazepe Admin Admin

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  2. From personal experiences, I don't think these rules have improved server performance as of now, could something else be done if performance still doesn't continue to improve?
     
  3. ABashfulbear

    ABashfulbear Moderator Moderator

    Because they are not yet being enforced, it is still a little early to tell. I will say though, after looking at the server performance and extra information available to staff, they have already made a difference. There has been a sizeable reduction in entities and in particular, bases which double the amount of loaded entities.

    In regards to what else can be done, the server is constantly being maintained and our options explored. Although, there aren't that many options that allow us to remain semi-vanilla. We are always working on what's best for the server, although a lot of this goes unseen.

    I hope this helps,

    Bear.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. bluuu

    bluuu Villager

    ty for not changing rules again from the original change, consistency is appreciated

    pls address the double curing situation with villagers that paper changed last month, having current double cures be grandfathered in is unfair to players who are just starting their supply lines for their markets (me). having cheap emerald trades gives current enchant shops like cos or MM a monopoly on the market which means i can never compete price wise which sucks and doesnt allow for server growth (the same way monopolies stop industries IRL to grow).
     
  5. Cosunde

    Cosunde Veteran

    Actually, I don't have librarian villagers.
     
  6. I'm not sure how this changes bluuu's argument in any way?
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  7. bluuu

    bluuu Villager

    your supplier e-chiz has to have librarian villagers double cured to continue at 0.5d/enchant if they want a profit, regardless that doesnt even count armorer or toolsmith trades for weapons and armor which your tool shop that will open up will have to have if u want to compete with kwix at nether. you can get 60+ emerald weapon trades down to 1-5 with multicure, that simply puts me out of the market if i would start armorer trading right now. its not fair and more importantly its not fun, only for the lucky few who had them before paper update.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Well I guess upgrading the server isn't one of those "other options" as there still hasn't been any sort of news regarding upgrading server hardware, which I am certain Shaz has mentioned before.
     
  9. kwix

    kwix Villager

    Harrow!
    For the sake of fairness I'd be inclined to agree with Blu.
    Multi-Curing Villagers should be available to everybody or nobody.
    It makes sense that it was removed from Paper. Multi-Curing is OP.
    1 Pumpkin shouldn't be equal to 1 Diamond Chestplate, ever.
    However, having it available only via grandfather clause breaks the economy even more than having it available for everybody.
    You have given myself, and anybody else with multi-cured villagers an unfair advantage over people who didn't get them before the change.
    I'd rather have an even playing field.
    You have my vote to remove multi-cured villagers all together.
     
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  10. ABashfulbear

    ABashfulbear Moderator Moderator

    Although I cannot speak for Shaz, I can say upgrading the server has been discussed, although there aren't really any upgrades that would make a significant difference.

    In regards to multi-curing, I will raise it with the rest of the staff.
     
  11. Shazepe

    Shazepe Admin Admin

    After consulting paper, we've determined the extra possible curings in the past were due to an unfixed bug in vanilla minecraft - which paper has since patched. We can't go back to the past curing mechanics, sorry. We also don't have a viable way to destroy every villager that has been overcured in the past, we will see about that though.
     
  12. Chiz

    Chiz Villager

    "After consulting with the people who arbitrarily made changes to the game, who told us that this is a good thing without counterargument, we've determined this is a good thing."

    If you consult Mojang's own bug tracker for the so-called 'bug/exploit', https://bugs.mojang.com/browse/MC-181190 , you find that not only is there no attempt to fix something that has been known about since before the release of 1.16.1, but there isn't even a consensus on if the curing mechanic is broken in the first place, and what a proper fix would be, if one is even required.

    You absolutely can, that's a blatant lie. The Paper patch file ( https://github.com/PaperMC/Paper/bl...curing-zombie-villager-discount-exploit.patch ) has the boolean flag fixCuringZombieVillagerDiscountExploit which disables the new code from running and allows for the vanilla behaviour that existed before December.

    Don't say we can't go back. You're merely choosing not to go back for unknown reasons, against the wishes of some of your more active userbase.

    I have no doubt, however, you'll find a way to accomplish this despite the added difficulty over changing a configuration file.

    Of course, driving enough people away has the same effect ultimately, doesn't it?
     
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  13. bluuu

    bluuu Villager

    its cool I wasnt suggesting we go back, i agree with kwix that multi curing is busted and hurts the economy. and i agree with you that its a mojang bug they just never patched and curing should be limited to 1 time (although maybe chiz disagrees with that idk) i don't have any links/patches that would make it be able to reset the trades of multi cured villagers sadly. whatever is decided im sure it would suck to have to position all your villagers in a hall/room again. maybe go on the honor system as theres only a handful of players with multicures and help those players delete and reposition new villagers with spawn eggs? so the multicures are deleted but they dont lose their trading hall? idk, but whatever is decided all i know is keeping the old ones to whoever had them and not letting new ones be cured is the worst possible solution to the problem from all the options. pls take action
     
  14. Shazepe

    Shazepe Admin Admin

    I know not everyone will like this change, but in mojangs tracker they list it as confirmed/important themselves. It could take a long time, but they still plan to fix it, and it'd be better not to wait until later and just fix the unintended extra curing. I can't say for sure when they will fix it themselves though. The input in the comments is not from Mojang and isn't a part of determining what's a bug. There are a long list of unfixed bugs mojang has listed like this, and spigot and paper take care of them as they come up.

    When I said we can't go back, I didn't mean it's not possible. I didn't word it 100% right, but I intended that to mean we weren't planning to change back.
     
  15. I will be honest, until just now i did not even know that this was a issue for some people on this server.
    And as i understand it it goes like this after reading it all:
    Some older players have multi cured villagers that give extreme discounts on their items. for example 1 pumpkin = 1 emerald and then 1 emerald = 1 enchanted book.
    While others get, lets say, 1 emerald out of 6 pumpkins and the same book costs over 20 emeralds for them. And these players can not get to the same discount that these older players have because multi curing is patched on this server.
    This gives some players a advantage over the others because they need less emeralds to achieve the same results. Some might even say it gives those people a monopoly over those markets.

    I would say that them having a monopoly is simply not true. A small advantage yes, but never a economy breaking advantage. It only safes these players time gathering resources.

    To the monopoly: Anyone can sell the same Items they do to the same prices they do. that's not a problem at all. One might argue that they can have huge stockpiles tough but i would argue .... for what reason?! No player needs 10 sets of armor, 15 different swords or the enchantment sharpness 5 20 times.
    If you have a shop for those Items most of the time any other player will only be your customer until he has maxed out gear. That gear will either have mending, or will be unbreakable anyway. And since on this server we do not loose our equipment by death the only way those players could become your customers again is if they ( like me ) on accident destroy their equipment by throwing it in fire or so.
    That is why it does not mater if you have 500 Chest-plates in in your store, or just 5, as long as you don't let it run dry.

    One could argue that there lies the Advantage, because the other player will never have to worry about having their stock run dry.
    My argument against that would be, why should anyone?! I have a whole Island full of free roaming Villagers. Did not zombiefy and then cure any of them. In addition to that I only have quite small farms, just to support my own needs for trade, and i never have a problem to get the trades i need done, even if i have 0 emeralds. My farms are even not build for efficiency at all, but rather to look good. ( Go to " Blackroof " and take a look if you want to. Mesa Warp, white building with portal and the rest is just following the signs ).
    If one would really want to, or need to in order to compete, they could easily built farms and villagers that make it a walk in the park to support any shop.
    Yes it takes time to set that up, just as it took time for those older players to set their stuff up.

    So no, i don't think anyone has a argument that there would be any major issue at hand in this case.

    Hah ... even if the Staff maybe wont like what i am gonna say next i'l still do it ^^
    I even have played with the thought of totally crashing the selling economy of anything villagers can supply me with by flooding the market with ultra cheep Stuff ^^
    A max enchanted Diamond Chest-plate for 1 Diamond? pfff, how about a full SET max enchanted including 1 Tool of you're liking for 1 Diamond?! :D
    ... Not that i need Diamonds anyway .... im running around in Chainmail armor .....

    And yes, i know that is possible because i have done it on a other Server before ^^ was lots of fun :D The others did try to compete with even lower prices, to my upmost liking of course ^^, with just brought a huge down spiral in prices. ... Good times ^^
    Didn't even get kicked for it, free market be free market the admin stated ..... cool guy ^^
    It all did return to normal on it own after a while tough. None of us had the iron willpower to keep THAT fight up for any longer period. ..... . . . .


    Il better stop storytime here, sorry for that ^^ . I hope i can take away this Illusion of a big issue tough.
     
  16. TimelordofLegend

    TimelordofLegend Moderator Moderator

    To me the issue lies not in the fact that players will have a monopoly but instead the established economy will take a hit as while yes you can get these items in the base game, lets say for example quartz. The price of quartz is 1 dia per 48-64 ish. Quartz is an item you can get in the nether easily. However it is much faster to get by villager trading since it is 1 emerald per block as a base trade for masons. The problem comes from the emerald supply as it will be harder to stock for the same price as, in this argument a farmer villager, can trade say 22 wheat for a single emerald. Lets say you can only cure them once as intended. Then the price may be something akin to 11 wheat per emerald. This is still a far cry from the 1:1 possibility and thus requires much more farm available to achieve the same level of production for emeralds. yes this is still doable but it requires a LOT of time to accomplish and many players may simply not want to put that much effort in as it is admittedly very boring and it begins to feel more like work. As such the price of the blocks would fall as it is no longer feasible to produce enough emeralds, and therefore quartz, to meet the demand so it forces the economy to take a hit because the means of production is taking a hit.
     
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  17. jinnie

    jinnie Recruit

    I agree with Timelord here. As someone who is one of the main suppliers for quartz, I can confidently say its hard to run it as a monopoly. Its hard to be consistent with villager trades and keeping quartz in stock as its in high demand and its hard to keep up with gathering emeralds.

    Farmers are one of the cheapest ways to get emeralds, as far as I know that's how most people get their emeralds and there hasn't been too much of an issue with it. Trades are mainly in pumpkins and melons as you only have to infect them once to get a 1:1 trade. My personal view from playing for the past couple months, they 1:1 trade has made it more available to players to gather emeralds and keep up with the 4eb:1dia ratios.

    I do understand most ppls concern w cheap enchantments but in my view it makes it more accessible to newer and older players.

    With * multi* level curing , agreed with it being a bit too op but seeing how the economy is currently from a regular players view, I don't see it being exploited too much to the point where the economy is taking a hit, if so im guessing multiple ppl/servers would have patched it in the past but I haven't really seen it.

    --this is more of a personal view w the whole discussion of villager curing,, I've been suggested I have one of the bigger sets of villagers cured on the server and im willing to further discuss the whole mass curing thing if needed
    but eh,,
     
  18. Hopefully after the new redstone changes creepers will magically get there explosion ability back.
     
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  19. Dang man, what doesn't make you angry?
     
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  20. ngl yeah i feel like that if multi curing is turned on then it'd give unfair advantages to everyone and ruin the economy of many shops. so id rather multi curing off imo. also to what 2019 said, i do kinda wish creeper damage is added bac
     
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