The Issue at Swamp Warp

Discussion in 'Reports' started by my6OOpoundlife, Dec 31, 2019.

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  1. This is a little hard to explain coming from not only an observer, but someone who hasn’t logged on in a week. Anyway, here it goes.


    Starting around the 14th of December, player Thomas5200 tried to make a deal with LawrenceChiu, owner of the mall at swamp warp. He tried to get ahold of Lawre’s claim in order to rebuild the mall. At that time, Thomas’ reasons in doing so were unknown on my end. The acceptance of this proposal would result in the temporary relocation of all shops used by the mall’s vendors.

    Apparently (from what I have seen) Lawre did not accept and continued business as usual.


    That same day, Thomas stated that the mall would be temporarily blocked due to it being an “ugly build”. These measures would be taken to “save the eyes of those who [would] use the warp.”


    Other players/vendors in the mall’s discord considered this behaviour to be malicious and domineering. They told Lawrence either to report Thomas or ignore him. After all, what would he legally be able to do in order to push this?


    On the 28th, after what seemed to be some dispute between the two, Thomas continued to push his attempted covenant, stating that the exterior was an “abomination” and it was “[his] choice” to “cover it up to make the warp nicer”. Further, he argued that if Lawrence wanted to save the trouble, he “shouldn’t have built [the mall] at the warp in the first place.” He didn’t care about the mall - its apparent ugliness was the irritating factor. He finished his statement with a polemic that if Lawrence’s mall had any time and effort dedicated to it, there would be no need to hide its ugliness.


    Aside from that, he stated that “it is not even close to illegal to hide a build.” If its entrance was left unobstructed, it was perfectly fine.


    On December 31 (today), Thomas threw in his final threat. He claimed that he had already purchased every swamp warp claim surrounding the mall, and in owning so much land he can’t have it or his name juxtaposed with “something that looks like that.”


    What seemed to be the choice for Lawrence was either to submit to Thomas’ proposal and demolish the mall, something that almost all of the vendors were opposed to, or hold on to the claim and let Thomas “completely surround” him.

    This proposal had effectively turned from a trade agreement to a malevolent blackmail, with unfavourable results in both choices.


    Thomas then said that he talked to a mod and could build a “big mountain or anything [he] really wanted without breaking the rules” around the claim, if Lawrence did not agree. Whether he accepted or not, Thomas would either be terraforming his claim or around it.


    I logged off of Discord. Several hours later, in-game images started popping up there. Thomas had begun to build a lava wall around the mall, with what seemed to be no input or affirmation from Lawrence.


    All images of evidence and sources are posted in this thread, hopefully.


    This has been posted in the reports section due to the supposition that it breaks Safe Survival’s Rule 2: Respecting other players.

    “Builds made for the purpose of intimidating another player to leave their nearby claims are not allowed.”

    The act of surrounding the mall in terraformed land, even if avoiding the entrance, discourages/can discourage the owner of the claim from owning it. It intimidates/can intimidate them to submit to the proposed deal or stop selling there.


    This also is almost unequivocally against Rule 6: No griefing.

    “Blocking public pathways, claims and warp exits is not allowed.”

    The act of blocking claims is not allowed. If this rule is seemingly badly worded, blocking public pathways is not allowed, blocking claims is not allowed, and blocking warp exits is not allowed. I believe that this is the way the rule was written to be, and it should not be abridged or altered to fit an individual’s needs or concerns.


    In any sense, this kind of behaviour is absolutely malicious and unacceptable. Lawrence (or any other player) should not be blackmailed, or feel pressured at all into making a deal with another player or players. If the mall is ugly, it is entirely up to the claim owner to decide what happens to it. Other players who own land near the claim have absolutely no business in deciding for them.


    The warps do not belong to any single players. There is no complete ownership/monopoly over a warp; the staff is in control of the warps and can choose how to deal with each and every inappropriate or irritating claim accordingly. Whether this means forcing the player to remove the claim, asking politely for the player to remove it, taking over the claim and removing the build, or calling it very very ugly and blackmailing them into surrendering it so that they can own the land (good mods don’t do this), it is entirely up to the staff to decide.


    Though I believe these rules are broken I am not to ultimately decide so. The staff is responsible for dealing with them.


    Players involved (most are SOP Discord members (disregarding minecraft usernames, mostly))


    Thomas5200

    LawrenceChiu

    nolg

    Hikoo

    Adam Ismail

    inflnity

    blah28722

    Julian50419

    sstari

    Wesley2610

    Crammedup

    EzBrees

    Sleepy Matt

    SquareAngle

    Thunderplayz

    my6OOpoundlife (me)


    whether any of these players contributed to the argument is not known by me, but I do know almost all of them would have their builds displaced if things go further.


    Thanks for your time,

    my6OOpoundlife
     
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  3. It should be noted, that often time quotes have been taken out of context. It should also be noted that there is nothing in the rules which prohibits me from building something which hides a claim. Let me undress your arguments point by point:

    ~~

    1. Rule 2: “Builds made for the purpose of intimidating another player to leave their nearby claims are not allowed.”

    As demonstrated in this quote from the conversation I had with a moderator prior to starting the construction of the mountain range, I did not do this to force any sort of sale/transfer of the claim.

    Sure, if it fell in my lap I'd take it, but it was quite clear no cooperation was going to be possible, so I had to go with plan C instead of my preferred plans A and B.

    ~~

    2. Rule 6: “Blocking public pathways, claims and warp exits is not allowed.”

    Is access to the claim blocked? No. Nothing is built that blocked the side bordering the path from the warp. Plus, from my conversation with a mod, I had clear and obvious permission to build a mountain hiding the build. Here are the highlights from the conversation.

    You can clearly see I got permission to build a mountain there. This invalidates the whole argument. I didn't do it brashly or without permission, I made sure to cover all my bases.

    ~~

    3. "In any sense, this kind of behaviour is absolutely malicious and unacceptable. "

    You should take note that this behaviour wasn't malicious. Everything I did was pre-planned and not malicious. If the negotiations went one way, I might use one plan, but if it went a different way, I had another plan. Either way, this wasn't malicious or unacceptable, it was simply a pre-made plan that was executed as a result of the outcome of the negotiations.

    A) Buying/trading for the claim would've been plan A. Very early on it was clear to me that wasn't possible, so I shifted to plan B.

    B) Plan B was to cooperate with Lawrence and rebuild the mall with mountains surrounding the warp like so:
    Screen Shot 2019-12-30 at 7.48.19 PM.png

    C) After it became clear plan B wasn't working out, I went to my final contingency, Plan C which involved going around Lawrence's claim like any reasonable person would:
    Screen Shot 2019-12-30 at 11.55.04 PM.png

    Sure, the lava wall at the start might seem somewhat overkill, but initially, I was forced to use a transparent block such as lava or water or glass instead of building a mountain due to a contractual obligation from the prior purchase of the claim. However, after I was released from that condition, I was able to build a mountain. I figured since I had the lava, I'd flood it down and see if I could somehow generate stone instead of placing it by hand, but unfortunately, I was told I could only generate cobblestone, so the plan failed. I instead started building the mountain by hand, which was the plan for Plan C all along.

    This build isn't malicious, it is simply me trying to make the best of the circumstances I am forced to work under.

    ~~

    4. "On December 31 (today), Thomas threw in his final threat. He claimed that he had already purchased every swamp warp claim surrounding the mall, and in owning so much land he can’t have it or his name juxtaposed with “something that looks like that.”

    This statement is inherently false and I would greatly appreciate if you wouldn't slander me in this way.

    The quote in question actually says:
    I personally find the build not aesthetically pleasing to the standards I hold myself to in big projects I will be committing large amounts of time to. I didn't say I wouldn't work with it present at the warp, I just said I won't work on the mall if it stayed like that. I can't control what the warp looks like, but if I become involved in a project such as a massive mall, I'll only associate myself with it if I consider it well thought out and good looking.

    I salute everyone who worked to build the interior of the structure. I think it's pretty good looking and clearly took some time and effort to build. But the outside is what I take issue with. I don't appreciate how it looks and it isn't aesthetically pleasing to me. I know I can't control how it looks, but I have the right to build on my claims, even if the purpose is to hide some of it from view. As shown before, I have mod approval to do it.

    Additionally, it isn't a threat. I simply stated what would happen if he chose to work with me. If he chose to work with me, we could run plan B which involved using all my claims and his claim. If he didn't choose to work with me, I would have to proceed with plan C which involved building around the mall. As mentioned above, I had plans already in place, so I was just saying that if we worked together, we'd have unlimited space, but if we didn't we would both lose, which I didn't prefer.

    Also, I'd like to apologize for saying I completely surround him. This is inherently false as I forgot to account for the path in front of the building. In all reality, I only encompass 1/2-3/4 of the build, not the whole thing.

    ~~

    5. "stating that the exterior was an 'abomination'"

    It should be noted that I have the right to state my opinion, as long as I don't defame him. I voiced my opinion in private, which removed any call for defamation. I didn't attempt to defame his build publicly, any sharing of those discord messages was done by him, and him alone. People may have a different opinion. People may not understand my opinion, but you must respect my opinion. I respect your opinion that you like the mall, but I don't. If you don't want to make something I consider and I'd hope you would consider better, that's your choice.

    BUT it's my choice if I want to cover it up with a mountain in front of the mall. It'd be impossible for staff to enforce a rule which prohibits players from hiding builds on a claim in behind their build. That would be banning all skyscrapers, big structures or anything that might hide a build on a claim behind your claim.

    ~~~

    To conclude:

    You have fabricated multiple rule infractions, slandered me with a false interpretation of a quote and posted private messages. I have clearly shown that there is no rule which I could have violated and that I had clear permission to build a mountain hiding your claim.

    I was willing to work with Lawrence provided he apologized for some rude insults he hurled, calling me "impolite, greedy, toxic" which I'd consider offensive, considering that some may be of that opinion, but it's rude to insult someone like that. I have plenty of choice words I would love to say to a few individuals, but do I? NO. It is simply rude and impolite. I'm not even sure if I'd be willing to work together at this point, due to the firestorm Lawrence has raised over a completely legal series of events. Why cause such trouble? Maybe consider handling things privately with myself and a couple mods instead of running to the public every time something doesn't go your way. Consider some discretion instead of blowing things out of proportion and creating the toxicity you accuse me of.

    I would ask that you leave me be to build as I see fit on my claims. I take care not to break rules and I haven't done so here, and will strive not to break any going forward. I would appreciate if you let me be Lawrence, unless you wish to apologize for the trouble you have caused to both myself and the mods who now have to deal with this.

    ~~

    [14:57:27] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [me -> | Moderator | *] quick question
    [14:57:38] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [| Moderator | *knas -> me] hi, sure
    [14:58:20] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [me -> | Moderator | *] let's say I don't like how a build looks at a warp. I would be allowed to build something in front of said build to "hide it" provided it still has clear and obvious access to the warp
    [14:58:50] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [| Moderator | *-> me] like those mountains you planned another time?
    [14:59:19] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [me -> | Moderator | *] sure. Because based on what was said, it's only illegal if I'm doing so in order to force a player to sell their claim
    [14:59:39] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [me -> | Moderator | *] I could show you the area
    [14:59:45] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [| Moderator | *-> me] well, it all depends.
    [15:00:12] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [| Moderator | *-> me] got to be respectful to the claim owner, thats in the rules too
    [15:00:20] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [me -> | Moderator | *] tp, I'll show you
    [15:00:32] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [me -> | Moderator | *] I could build a mountain right here
    [15:00:49] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [me -> | Moderator | *] because it still has clear access to the path on the other side
    [15:01:06] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [| Moderator | *-> me] nolgs claim?
    [15:01:35] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [me -> | Moderator | *] on my claim which is directly in front of Nolg's claim
    [15:02:07] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [| Moderator | *-> me] why not just buy him out?
    [15:02:43] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [me -> | Moderator | *] the Rondo claim
    [15:02:51] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [me -> | Moderator | *] with the big mall thing?
    [15:03:11] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [| Moderator | *-> me] no, the nolg claim
    [15:03:21] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [me -> | Moderator | *] wdym?
    [15:03:48] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [| Moderator | *-> me] ah, i thought you owned the big building too
    [15:04:03] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [me -> | Moderator | *] nah
    [15:04:38] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [me -> | Moderator | *] but I could theoretically build a big mountain here to hide as much of the big box as possible
    [15:05:17] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [me -> | Moderator | *] I would buy his claim if he offered, but it's clear he won't no matter the circumstances, plus I couldn't afford it anyhow so I wouldn't be intimidating him into selling
    [15:05:43] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [| Moderator | *-> me] sure, as long as you are respectful to nolg, which is kind of between a rock and a hard place there
    [15:06:13] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [me -> | Moderator | *] ah yeah he's working with the mall people, so I'm not too worried about him
     
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  4. Honestly Thomas is just being entirely childish and he shouldn't be able to do this. It's also come to light now that Thomas has even tried to buy back claims from people who had just sold Lawrence a claim.
    Screenshots show this 1 (1).png 2.png 3.png
     
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  5. Just a bystander, but I kinda like the aesthetics of the mall. Remind me of 90s toys :)

    Oh yeah: it isn't up to one player on this server as to what IS or ISN'T aesthetically acceptable. Nor is it up to anyone to block/distort builds they deem unpleasing. That's just hugely childish.

    So grow up and let Lawre have his mall.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2019
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  6. Honestly, this whole issue with swamp warp claims and Thomas’s “mountain” is off-putting to say the least. No matter who’s right or wrong, this whole conflict takes the fun out of having the warps. This is supposed to be a community and warps aren’t supposed to be tearing us apart. But that’s exactly what swamp warp seems to be doing. This isn’t supposed to be a monopoly where one person & ”associates” own most/all of the land. While there’s nothing wrong with players consenting to selling their claims, it’s obvious that at least some players want to keep their claims. And one of the ways they’ve shown that is by building on it. I really doubt the warp will look as friendly and welcoming with other players’ builds being even somewhat blocked by a ”mountain”. It’ll just look like the “mountain” is trying to hide everyone else’s builds from those who visit swamp warp. The warp was set for ALL players who want to use it, not just one player who wants things a certain way.

    Thomas, don’t try to argue that “oh there’s other players working with me on this project” because how many of them are happily working on monopolizing the warp & destroying everyone else’s hard work vs how many players (seemingly most of the community) are fed up with their builds being hidden (even slightly hidden). Also you said in chat that you’re holding off on full-out blocking off everyone else’s builds because “players whines and complained” as if it was wrong for them to do so. 1st off: if you spent days, even weeks on a build that you’re proud of only to have a mountain sitting in-front of it and have it be called ugly, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be very happy about that would you now? 2nd: think about all of the times you’ve complained about anything and pretty much everything. If anyone should be bringing up players complaining, I don’t think it should be you. I’m not saying you can’t make a mountain, if you really want to, then go for it. But I honestly don’t think a warp is the best place to do so.

    At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised if I visited my swamp warp claims to find a “mountain” surrounding them.

    Disclaimer: it’s 3am so there’s probably grammar/spelling mistakes. I’ll fix those when I’m more awake. Also I will admit to calling Thomas out in public chat about his project, but I tried my best to be respectful but realistic about the reality of the situation. I do apologize if I came off harsh or rude, but I really don’t like seeing this sort of conflict over a warp. Also my mind’s a bit scattered, so this post might not be as organized as I was hoping. I’ll edit my response as I think of more to say.
     
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  7. Thank you for your response, Thomas.

    Apologies for the misunderstanding here. As per my last post, I am my6OOpoundlife, not Lawrence. This is coming entirely from me and my interpretation of the situation in the swamp warp chat.

    Anyway, thank you for sharing the conversation with said moderator here. It's great to be able to understand more of what I am trying to explain to both myself and those who read.

    While I do understand that I have used these quotes and depicted your intentions as malicious, I feel that I have reason to do so.

    The idea of this being threatening and against the mall is built around the idea that surrounding the mall with any obstructive structure is detrimental to the sales and overall attractiveness of the mall. It's essential to keep all of the mall conspicuous to the public to draw them in.
    Your verbal degradation of the exterior of the mall is opinionated and likely not to line up with the opinion of everyone else. Moreover, it only adds to the suspicion that you are against those who run/design the mall.

    This idea only snowballs the more you add to your statements. All of them were open to an increasing amount of interpretation, and with the initial gibe of calling it ugly, things rolled the negative way. Things began to seem like less of a win-win circumstantial opportunity and more of a grab for money by, in a sense, taking it from others.

    Let me see how I can respond to and negotiate with each point.

    Point 1

    I can see this as not being built on the intentions of making Lawrence leave, but it has adverse effects and you should take note of them.
    After a short questionnaire with Lawrence, I got the answer that he would not be pressured into leaving, but disappointed at the results.
    I'll take this as acceptable for not breaking the rules, but it's hard to make out a clear distinction. Intentions and concerns should be vocalized clearly between the two of you, instead of moving forward immediately with consent unseen from me. If these concerns clearly exist and are not shown, it's likely on Lawrence's end.


    Point 2

    The argument that seems to have been created here is the idea that not completely obstructing the claim is not blocking it illegally. Answering my questions, Lawrence said that you (most likely in plan B) wanted to get rid of the mall, then terraform around it, leaving only an entrance. I can see that you're still following that pattern to a restricted extent in plan C. However, this is still majorly obstructive of the mall and can easily be considered as blocking it from a standpoint. It's also exceptionally disrespectful to remove the exterior work done by other people by putting in your work and blocking it. Saying that the mall is ugly and Lawrence should remove it, and then going into the work of covering it by yourself without any input from anyone else? This is getting out of hand. This really seems to be the work of pettiness at this point. If you have a problem with the mall, get Lawrence and his group to renovate it and leave it at that.

    Point 3 is pretty much answered in point 2. Let me know what else I have to clear up there.

    Point 4


    Here's the quote I am going to work with:
    The statement being a threat is up to interpretation, as I said. From the viewpoint of me and likely most of those working at SOP, this is a threat. Included in the message is "if you don't [choose to work with my plan,] I completely surround you...It can be a win-win or a lose-lose". Even if Lawrence is not entirely surrounded (as you stated he was not), the standalone quote does seem threatening.

    This implies that something is lost on Lawrence's side if he chooses not to cooperate, which has already been made clear. If this plan C means that things are being lost for Lawrence by obstructions being built around the mall, and things are being gained on your end by obstructing it, then I would see this as unfair and advantageous to only one side. Even if you are losing space by creating the mountains, you still seem to have enormous tracts of land and can freely build underground/vertically. Though this can be done on Lawrence's end, you would still probably want to cover it. Since it's declared by you as a loss for Lawrence, and harming him, then by definition, this message and proposition are malicious.

    Point 5:

    What? You called it an abomination, and are trying to justify it by saying you told it in private... straight to him? I do respect your opinion. You have every right to dislike the mall. Go ahead, call it ugly, call it unfitting for the warp, call it effortless. Just don't say this straight to him. Keep your negative thoughts to yourself. If you have nothing good to say, don't say anything. It's even worse to say this straight to the person who owns the mall, in a one-on-one conversation. I understand if you don't want to defame him, and you aren't doing that if it's personal. But you are being rude. You are being impudent and shameless in openly telling him that his build was an abomination. I don't really care if you are hurting his reputation. I don't really care that you are hurting his sales. You are hurting him. It's a given that you have no idea how much time and effort was put into the exterior just to make it look at least attractive to any other person, and you are going up to him, calling it an abomination, and then getting your face up right in front of his claim to block these hours of effort from public view just because you didn't like it. That's a horrible thing to do, Thomas, and I hope you feel ashamed of yourself.

    On a more serious note, though, yes. It is your choice to cover it up with a mountain, as long as the mods are okay with it. I think the staff could create a rule that bans intentionally hiding builds in a claim due to their so-called ugliness because that is what you are most obviously doing in this situation. Skyscrapers? Large buildings? Fine, as long as they aren't created specifically to obstruct another build. Reasons for doing so can be sorted out and worked with, but in this case, you are building a piece of land specifically to block Lawrence's mall because you think it looks bad with your other structures. For what I see it, that is no respectful way to treat another player or group of players in any given case.

    To conclude:

    I have carefully explained my thoughts on each rule infraction now, and fabrication is subject to correction/explanation. My interpretations of what you said are from my perspective on how the problem is being dealt with by you, and the private messages I posted were already sent out to a multitude of people beforehand. You have shown that you can build a mountain, but there are some obvious moral issues with it that I have pointed out.

    He apologized. That is a wonderful thing of him to do, given the context that you have called his build ugly in several forms, multiple times, with failure to apologize at all, from what I have seen. The entirety of this quote is hypocritical in the sense that even though you are claiming to avoid these slanderous words, you hit Lawrence hard by showing him your wrecked perspective on the build, throwing away the time spent working on it. Just as you said, it is simply rude and impolite to do so. You should avoid it, even after saying you do, despite the context of privacy.

    The discretion of these messages is not in my hands. Lawrence felt that it was hard for him to respond, and needed some advice. I put these images here simply to prove how he asked for it, as well as to prove your disrespect for the build, Lawrence, and his builders. The toxicity I accused you of is from reasonable sources.

    I would ask that you leave Lawrence and his company be to show their build as they see fit on their claims. You're getting awfully close to breaking a rule here and should strive not to break any going forward. I would appreciate it if you let Lawrence be, Thomas, unless you wish to apologize for the trouble and damage you have caused to both him and the mods who now have to deal with this.

    - my6OOpoundlife

     
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  8. SkyFlower

    SkyFlower Moderator Moderator

    The moderation team is looking further into this matter. In order to keep this thread from creating unforeseen amounts of drama and arguments I will be locking the the thread. If you have any more information you would like share, please discord message me (Allison#1206) and I will share it with the rest of the moderation team.

    Thank you for understanding,
    Flower
     
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